Discussion:
Game Suspended in 6th inning?
(too old to reply)
KalElFan
2008-07-24 03:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Obviously I'm missing some rule that always existed, or they
changed it at some point and I missed that. Because I thought
that since the game had a full 5 innings in, the Jays would
simply get the win 2-1.
Bundo
2008-07-24 04:05:09 UTC
Permalink
I agree. I know that in the past if a game went past a curfew it would be
restarted. But this was a complete game.

WTF? MLB is so damned inconsistent.
Post by KalElFan
Obviously I'm missing some rule that always existed, or they
changed it at some point and I missed that. Because I thought
that since the game had a full 5 innings in, the Jays would
simply get the win 2-1.
KalElFan
2008-07-24 13:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bundo
Post by KalElFan
Obviously I'm missing some rule that always existed, or they
changed it at some point and I missed that. Because I thought
that since the game had a full 5 innings in, the Jays would
simply get the win 2-1.
I agree. I know that in the past if a game went past a curfew it
would [be] restarted. But this was a complete game.
Yep, I was aware the rule is suspended games happen in non-
rain delay cases like that, or if the game is tied. But I always
thought rain delays after 5 innings (without resumption that
day) meant the game was ended and official.
Post by Bundo
WTF? MLB is so damned inconsistent.
Well I think there must be some rule that's either always existed
or was changed in the last several years, to justify what they did.
It can't be "inconsistent" or a mistake, like a ball/strike, fair/foul,
or safe/out call.

I actually wasn't watching the game in the sixth. I'd seen the
beginning but then had to go out, and when I got back it wasn't
on. It seemed too soon to have ended so I researched it a bit
online and learned the score was 2-1. There was one reference
to a rain delay and it being the sixth inning with the Jays ahead,
and I also ran across a wire story that was then about 5 minutes
old, saying that the game was suspended and would be resumed
before this afternoon's game.

At that point I went "WTF?" and spent a few minutes searching
for an explanation, without success. Maybe they gave one on
the telecast but again I wasn't watching at the time. So I made
the post here proclaiming my befuddlement. :-)

As I write this I still don't know what the explanation is. I may
search some of the stories on it this morning and see if there's
one there. My best guess is that there's a refinement to the 5-
inning rule, where if the visiting team takes the lead in the top
of an inning, after the game being tied at the end of the previous
full inning, they have to suspend and at least complete the current
inning, if not the whole nine innings? Other than that convoluted
guess, I'm still thinking "WTF?" and that the Jays should have
just won the game 2-1.
Rick Currie
2008-07-24 13:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by KalElFan
Post by Bundo
Post by KalElFan
Obviously I'm missing some rule that always existed, or they
changed it at some point and I missed that. Because I thought
that since the game had a full 5 innings in, the Jays would
simply get the win 2-1.
I agree. I know that in the past if a game went past a curfew it
would [be] restarted. But this was a complete game.
Yep, I was aware the rule is suspended games happen in non-
rain delay cases like that, or if the game is tied. But I always
thought rain delays after 5 innings (without resumption that
day) meant the game was ended and official.
Post by Bundo
WTF? MLB is so damned inconsistent.
Well I think there must be some rule that's either always existed
or was changed in the last several years, to justify what they did.
It can't be "inconsistent" or a mistake, like a ball/strike, fair/foul,
or safe/out call.
I actually wasn't watching the game in the sixth. I'd seen the
beginning but then had to go out, and when I got back it wasn't
on. It seemed too soon to have ended so I researched it a bit
online and learned the score was 2-1. There was one reference
to a rain delay and it being the sixth inning with the Jays ahead,
and I also ran across a wire story that was then about 5 minutes
old, saying that the game was suspended and would be resumed
before this afternoon's game.
At that point I went "WTF?" and spent a few minutes searching
for an explanation, without success. Maybe they gave one on
the telecast but again I wasn't watching at the time. So I made
the post here proclaiming my befuddlement. :-)
As I write this I still don't know what the explanation is. I may
search some of the stories on it this morning and see if there's
one there. My best guess is that there's a refinement to the 5-
inning rule, where if the visiting team takes the lead in the top
of an inning, after the game being tied at the end of the previous
full inning, they have to suspend and at least complete the current
inning, if not the whole nine innings? Other than that convoluted
guess, I'm still thinking "WTF?" and that the Jays should have
just won the game 2-1.
I just checked and the Jays did score in the top of the sixth, so it
makes sense to suspend it I guess. I suspect that if it had been 2-1
after the 5th, the game would have been called and the Jays would get the
W. It was tied after 5 complete innings, and it wasn't suspended before
5 complete, so they wouldn't start over. I think that I have heard of
other games in the past that were continued. I think there was an extra
inning game in the NL earlier in the year, IIRC.

I wondered the same thing too when I heard it, thought that the Jays
should have won it.

Rick
KalElFan
2008-07-24 16:21:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rick Currie
Post by KalElFan
Post by Bundo
Post by KalElFan
Obviously I'm missing some rule that always existed, or they
changed it at some point and I missed that. Because I thought
that since the game had a full 5 innings in, the Jays would
simply get the win 2-1.
I agree. I know that in the past if a game went past a curfew it
would [be] restarted. But this was a complete game.
Yep, I was aware the rule is suspended games happen in non-
rain delay cases like that, or if the game is tied. But I always
thought rain delays after 5 innings (without resumption that
day) meant the game was ended and official.
Post by Bundo
WTF? MLB is so damned inconsistent.
Well I think there must be some rule that's either always existed
or was changed in the last several years, to justify what they did.
It can't be "inconsistent" or a mistake, like a ball/strike, fair/foul,
or safe/out call.
I actually wasn't watching the game in the sixth. I'd seen the
beginning but then had to go out, and when I got back it wasn't
on. It seemed too soon to have ended so I researched it a bit
online and learned the score was 2-1. There was one reference
to a rain delay and it being the sixth inning with the Jays ahead,
and I also ran across a wire story that was then about 5 minutes
old, saying that the game was suspended and would be resumed
before this afternoon's game.
At that point I went "WTF?" and spent a few minutes searching
for an explanation, without success. Maybe they gave one on
the telecast but again I wasn't watching at the time. So I made
the post here proclaiming my befuddlement. :-)
As I write this I still don't know what the explanation is. I may
search some of the stories on it this morning and see if there's
one there. My best guess is that there's a refinement to the 5-
inning rule, where if the visiting team takes the lead in the top
of an inning, after the game being tied at the end of the previous
full inning, they have to suspend and at least complete the current
inning, if not the whole nine innings? Other than that convoluted
guess, I'm still thinking "WTF?" and that the Jays should have
just won the game 2-1.
I just checked and the Jays did score in the top of the sixth, so it
makes sense to suspend it I guess.
Presumably, but just to be clear I wasn't guessing that part. I read
that they did score in the top of the 6th, and my guess was on what
might be the refinement to the rule that involved that. So it doesn't
"makes sense to suspend it" on the basis of my speculation/guess.
It only makes sense if I guessed right on that and there actually is
that refinement or exception to that 5th inning rule.
Post by Rick Currie
I think that I have heard of other games in the past that were
continued. I think there was an extra inning game in the NL
earlier in the year, IIRC.
Tie games, or games called because of curfews or power failures
or other things like that, do get suspended. This one I still don't
get and I was just guessing that it might have something to do
with the tie just getting broken before the game was called. I
don't ever remember that being an exception though.
Post by Rick Currie
I wondered the same thing too when I heard it, thought that
the Jays should have won it.
I still think they should have, but there must be a specific rule
on it that resulted in the suspension instead. I hadn't had a chance
to research it before I saw your post but I may try to now.

Actually I just turned to channel 399, where the free preview of
today's game was scheduled for 12:30 p.m. The suspended game
must have started at noon. The O's just made their last out of the
6th and the game is now continuing. So it'll be a full 9, or more
if it's tied, after the suspension. It's the MASN (Maryland Sports
Network I assume) coverage. They may have explained it before
I tuned in but they haven't mentioned the reason as I write this.
So I'm off to check elsewhere.
KalElFan
2008-07-24 17:18:29 UTC
Permalink
So I'm off to check elsewhere...
Two reports on mlb.com didn't specifically explain it, nor an AP story.
A post to a discussion board I found says the score reverts to the end
of the previous inning, when it was tied. That can't be exactly true
though, because the score was 2-1 when they resumed. So it seems
it's a kind of blended rule. The "suspended game" rule kicks in by
going back to the end of the last inning in theory, to when it was tied,
but then they resume with whatever the score was after that, in this
case 2-1.

I think it's a dubious rule. The point of the 5 inning rule, it seems to
me, is to ensure each team has at least five innings (more than half a
regulation game) at the plate. That's really the only valid purpose I
can see. Once that's achieved, all this rule does is extend the potential
for silliness through the whole game. After either team takes the lead,
if it's raining hard the trailing side can try to delay and not let the
inning finish. By doing that, they get more innings and at bats on
resumption to try to come back.

Jays leading 5-1 now anyway. :-)
b***@webtv.net
2008-07-24 22:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Here are the official rules according to
The baseball almanac web site.imho the
best web site on the game.

But the rules are open ended on both
sides of the picture and I guess the umps
make the final call,I can't help but wonder
if the O's had been leading in the 6th if
they would have called the game and
given the O's a W.Or if it had been the
yanks for instance.anybodys guess.

As far as I am concerned five inn where
in the books and the jays had the lead in
top of the 6th.The game should have been
called before the O's got a chance to send
a hitter to the plate as it was raining just
as hard during the first batters at bat as it
was when the crew chief stopped the
game during the 2nd hitters at bat.making
it a suspended game I guess according to the rules of play.

Anyway it turned out that it sucked for the
O's in the end and they lost the 2nd game
to boot,to put the jays at .500 again ALRIGHT!!

4.12 SUSPENDED GAMES.

(a) A league shall adopt the following rules providing for completion at
a future date of games terminated for any of the following reasons:

(1) A curfew imposed by law;

(2) A time limit permissible under league rules;

(3) Light failure or malfunction of a mechanical field device under
control of the home club. (Mechanical field device shall include
automatic tarpaulin or water removal equipment).

(4) Darkness, when a law prevents the lights from being turned on.

**(5) Weather, if the game is called while an inning is in progress and
before it is completed, and one of the following situations prevails:

**(i) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score,
and the home team has not scored.

**(ii) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead,
and the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead.

**(b) Such games shall be known as suspended games. No game called
because of a curfew, weather, or a time limit shall be a suspended game
unless it has progressed far enough to have been a regulation game under
the provisions of


Rule 4.10. A game called under the provisions of 4.12(a), (3) or (4)
shall be a suspended game at any time after it starts.

NOTE: Weather and similar conditions_4.12 (a) (1 through 5)_shall take
precedence in determining whether a called game shall be a suspended
game.

A game can only be considered a suspended game if stopped for any of the
five (5) reasons specified in Section (a). Any regulation game called
due to weather with the score tied (unless situation outlined in 4.12
(a) (5) (i) prevails) is a tie game and must be replayed in its
entirety.

(c) A suspended game shall be resumed and completed as follows:

(1) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game between the two
clubs on the same grounds; or

(2) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader between the
two clubs on the same grounds, if no single game remains on the
schedule; or

(3) If suspended on the last scheduled date between the two clubs in
that city, transferred and played on the grounds of the opposing club,
if possible;

(i) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game, or

(ii) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader, if no single
game remains on the schedule.

(4) If a suspended game has not been resumed and completed on the last
date scheduled for the two clubs, it shall be a called game.

**(d) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension
of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a
continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both
teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the
moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any
player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to
the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned
to the lineup. A player who was not with the club when the game was
suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of
a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible
because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was
suspended. If immediately prior to the call of a suspended game, a
substitute pitcher has been announced but has not retired the side or
pitched until the batter becomes a baserunner, such pitcher, when the
suspended game is later resumed may, but is not required to start the
resumed portion of the game. However, if he does not start he will be
considered as having been substituted for and may not be used in that
game.

Then we have this:


EXCEPTION: If the game is called while an inning is in progress and
before it is completed, the game becomes a SUSPENDED game in each of the
following situations:

(1) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score and
the home team has not scored;

**(2) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead and
the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead. National
Association Leagues may also adopt the following rules for suspended
games in addition to 4.11 (d) (1) & (2) above. (If adopted by a National
Association League, Rule 4.10 (c) (d) & (e) would not apply to their
games.):

**(3) The game has not become a regulation game (4 1/2 innings with the
home team ahead, or 5 innings with the visiting club ahead or tied).

(4) Any regulation game tied at the point play is stopped because of
weather, curfew or other reason.

*(5) If a game is suspended before it becomes a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be limited to seven innings.

(6) If a game is suspended after it is a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be a nine inning game.

EXCEPTION: The above sections (3), (4), (5) & (6) will not apply to the
last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, or League Playoffs. Any suspended game not completed prior to
the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, will become a called game.
Bundo
2008-07-25 03:35:08 UTC
Permalink
thanks bush

BuNdO
Post by b***@webtv.net
Here are the official rules according to
The baseball almanac web site.imho the
best web site on the game.
But the rules are open ended on both
sides of the picture and I guess the umps
make the final call,I can't help but wonder
if the O's had been leading in the 6th if
they would have called the game and
given the O's a W.Or if it had been the
yanks for instance.anybodys guess.
As far as I am concerned five inn where
in the books and the jays had the lead in
top of the 6th.The game should have been
called before the O's got a chance to send
a hitter to the plate as it was raining just
as hard during the first batters at bat as it
was when the crew chief stopped the
game during the 2nd hitters at bat.making
it a suspended game I guess according to the rules of play.
Anyway it turned out that it sucked for the
O's in the end and they lost the 2nd game
to boot,to put the jays at .500 again ALRIGHT!!
4.12 SUSPENDED GAMES.
(a) A league shall adopt the following rules providing for completion at
(1) A curfew imposed by law;
(2) A time limit permissible under league rules;
(3) Light failure or malfunction of a mechanical field device under
control of the home club. (Mechanical field device shall include
automatic tarpaulin or water removal equipment).
(4) Darkness, when a law prevents the lights from being turned on.
**(5) Weather, if the game is called while an inning is in progress and
**(i) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score,
and the home team has not scored.
**(ii) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead,
and the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead.
**(b) Such games shall be known as suspended games. No game called
because of a curfew, weather, or a time limit shall be a suspended game
unless it has progressed far enough to have been a regulation game under
the provisions of
Rule 4.10. A game called under the provisions of 4.12(a), (3) or (4)
shall be a suspended game at any time after it starts.
NOTE: Weather and similar conditions_4.12 (a) (1 through 5)_shall take
precedence in determining whether a called game shall be a suspended
game.
A game can only be considered a suspended game if stopped for any of the
five (5) reasons specified in Section (a). Any regulation game called
due to weather with the score tied (unless situation outlined in 4.12
(a) (5) (i) prevails) is a tie game and must be replayed in its
entirety.
(1) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game between the two
clubs on the same grounds; or
(2) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader between the
two clubs on the same grounds, if no single game remains on the
schedule; or
(3) If suspended on the last scheduled date between the two clubs in
that city, transferred and played on the grounds of the opposing club,
if possible;
(i) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game, or
(ii) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader, if no single
game remains on the schedule.
(4) If a suspended game has not been resumed and completed on the last
date scheduled for the two clubs, it shall be a called game.
**(d) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension
of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a
continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both
teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the
moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any
player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to
the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned
to the lineup. A player who was not with the club when the game was
suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of
a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible
because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was
suspended. If immediately prior to the call of a suspended game, a
substitute pitcher has been announced but has not retired the side or
pitched until the batter becomes a baserunner, such pitcher, when the
suspended game is later resumed may, but is not required to start the
resumed portion of the game. However, if he does not start he will be
considered as having been substituted for and may not be used in that
game.
EXCEPTION: If the game is called while an inning is in progress and
before it is completed, the game becomes a SUSPENDED game in each of the
(1) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score and
the home team has not scored;
**(2) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead and
the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead. National
Association Leagues may also adopt the following rules for suspended
games in addition to 4.11 (d) (1) & (2) above. (If adopted by a National
Association League, Rule 4.10 (c) (d) & (e) would not apply to their
**(3) The game has not become a regulation game (4 1/2 innings with the
home team ahead, or 5 innings with the visiting club ahead or tied).
(4) Any regulation game tied at the point play is stopped because of
weather, curfew or other reason.
*(5) If a game is suspended before it becomes a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be limited to seven innings.
(6) If a game is suspended after it is a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be a nine inning game.
EXCEPTION: The above sections (3), (4), (5) & (6) will not apply to the
last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, or League Playoffs. Any suspended game not completed prior to
the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, will become a called game.
Bill Eickmeier
2008-08-01 21:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Hey bud,

The rules aren't open ended. Rule 4.12 is only part of the answer.
Rule 4.10 and 4.11 make it clear that the home team needs to get the
same number of innings batting as the visiting team. See:

http://www.400hitter.com/officialrules/sect4.asp

And yes, if the O's took the lead in the bottom of the 6th before the
rains came, they would have been given the Win.

see ya,
Bill
Post by b***@webtv.net
Here are the official rules according to
The baseball almanac web site.imho the
best web site on the game.
But the rules are open ended on both
sides of the picture and I guess the umps
make the final call,I can't help but wonder
if the O's had been leading in the 6th if
they would have called the game and
given the O's a W.Or if it had been the
yanks for instance.anybodys guess.
As far as I am concerned five inn where
in the books and the jays had the lead in
top of the 6th.The game should have been
called before the O's got a chance to send
a hitter to the plate as it was raining just
as hard during the first batters at bat as it
was when the crew chief stopped the
game during the 2nd hitters at bat.making
it a suspended game I guess according to the rules of play.
Anyway it turned out that it sucked for the
O's in the end and they lost the 2nd game
to boot,to put the jays at .500 again ALRIGHT!!
4.12 SUSPENDED GAMES.
(a) A league shall adopt the following rules providing for completion at
(1) A curfew imposed by law;
(2) A time limit permissible under league rules;
(3) Light failure or malfunction of a mechanical field device under
control of the home club. (Mechanical field device shall include
automatic tarpaulin or water removal equipment).
(4) Darkness, when a law prevents the lights from being turned on.
**(5) Weather, if the game is called while an inning is in progress and
**(i) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score,
and the home team has not scored.
**(ii) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead,
and the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead.
**(b) Such games shall be known as suspended games. No game called
because of a curfew, weather, or a time limit shall be a suspended game
unless it has progressed far enough to have been a regulation game under
the provisions of
Rule 4.10. A game called under the provisions of 4.12(a), (3) or (4)
shall be a suspended game at any time after it starts.
NOTE: Weather and similar conditions_4.12 (a) (1 through 5)_shall take
precedence in determining whether a called game shall be a suspended
game.
A game can only be considered a suspended game if stopped for any of the
five (5) reasons specified in Section (a). Any regulation game called
due to weather with the score tied (unless situation outlined in 4.12
(a) (5) (i) prevails) is a tie game and must be replayed in its
entirety.
(1) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game between the two
clubs on the same grounds; or
(2) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader between the
two clubs on the same grounds, if no single game remains on the
schedule; or
(3) If suspended on the last scheduled date between the two clubs in
that city, transferred and played on the grounds of the opposing club,
if possible;
(i) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game, or
(ii) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader, if no single
game remains on the schedule.
(4) If a suspended game has not been resumed and completed on the last
date scheduled for the two clubs, it shall be a called game.
**(d) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension
of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a
continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both
teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the
moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any
player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to
the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned
to the lineup. A player who was not with the club when the game was
suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of
a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible
because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was
suspended. If immediately prior to the call of a suspended game, a
substitute pitcher has been announced but has not retired the side or
pitched until the batter becomes a baserunner, such pitcher, when the
suspended game is later resumed may, but is not required to start the
resumed portion of the game. However, if he does not start he will be
considered as having been substituted for and may not be used in that
game.
EXCEPTION: If the game is called while an inning is in progress and
before it is completed, the game becomes a SUSPENDED game in each of the
(1) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score and
the home team has not scored;
**(2) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead and
the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead. National
Association Leagues may also adopt the following rules for suspended
games in addition to 4.11 (d) (1) & (2) above. (If adopted by a National
Association League, Rule 4.10 (c) (d) & (e) would not apply to their
**(3) The game has not become a regulation game (4 1/2 innings with the
home team ahead, or 5 innings with the visiting club ahead or tied).
(4) Any regulation game tied at the point play is stopped because of
weather, curfew or other reason.
*(5) If a game is suspended before it becomes a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be limited to seven innings.
(6) If a game is suspended after it is a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be a nine inning game.
EXCEPTION: The above sections (3), (4), (5) & (6) will not apply to the
last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, or League Playoffs. Any suspended game not completed prior to
the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, will become a called game.
Bill Kawalec
2008-07-25 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
It's because the Jays scored that lead run in the top of the sixth, but the
home team had not completed their half of the sixth. Would hardly be fair to
call that a complete game, would it? IF it had been 2-1 at the end of five,
game over.
Post by KalElFan
Post by Bundo
Post by KalElFan
Obviously I'm missing some rule that always existed, or they
changed it at some point and I missed that. Because I thought
that since the game had a full 5 innings in, the Jays would
simply get the win 2-1.
I agree. I know that in the past if a game went past a curfew it
would [be] restarted. But this was a complete game.
Yep, I was aware the rule is suspended games happen in non-
rain delay cases like that, or if the game is tied. But I always
thought rain delays after 5 innings (without resumption that
day) meant the game was ended and official.
Post by Bundo
WTF? MLB is so damned inconsistent.
Well I think there must be some rule that's either always existed
or was changed in the last several years, to justify what they did.
It can't be "inconsistent" or a mistake, like a ball/strike, fair/foul,
or safe/out call.
I actually wasn't watching the game in the sixth. I'd seen the
beginning but then had to go out, and when I got back it wasn't
on. It seemed too soon to have ended so I researched it a bit
online and learned the score was 2-1. There was one reference
to a rain delay and it being the sixth inning with the Jays ahead,
and I also ran across a wire story that was then about 5 minutes
old, saying that the game was suspended and would be resumed
before this afternoon's game.
At that point I went "WTF?" and spent a few minutes searching
for an explanation, without success. Maybe they gave one on
the telecast but again I wasn't watching at the time. So I made
the post here proclaiming my befuddlement. :-)
As I write this I still don't know what the explanation is. I may
search some of the stories on it this morning and see if there's
one there. My best guess is that there's a refinement to the 5-
inning rule, where if the visiting team takes the lead in the top
of an inning, after the game being tied at the end of the previous
full inning, they have to suspend and at least complete the current
inning, if not the whole nine innings? Other than that convoluted
guess, I'm still thinking "WTF?" and that the Jays should have
just won the game 2-1.
KalElFan
2008-07-25 13:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Kawalec
It's because the Jays scored that lead run in the top of the sixth, but
the home team had not completed their half of the sixth. Would hardly be
fair to call that a complete game, would it? IF it had been 2-1 at the end
of five, game over.
The main fairness issue here is that both teams should play sufficient
innings (or putting it another way, have sufficient outs at the plate) for
it to fairly be called a complete game. That's primarily dealt with by
the five inning rule, making it more than half a regulation game.

Beyond that, the defenses of the rule are dubious. Assuming there's
going to be a weather stoppage rule after five at all, then I think that
should be it no matter when it happens. It's umpire discretion as to
when the weather is bad enough to call it and he can exercise that
discretion in trying to get the last half of an inning in so the home team
has an equal number of outs. If the elements prevent that, though, then
so be it.

Even assuming the home team is given until the end of the inning though,
where's the fairness in instead giving them four more innings? In theory
there could have been two outs in the bottom of the sixth, with an 0-2
count on the hitter. The Jays one-run lead would need only one pitch,
a strike, to end it. If the Jays had had that one-run lead in the fifth the
game would already be ended.

Along comes a terrible rainstorm and the umpire exercises discretion to
call the game. Hypothetically, everyone agrees the weather is too awful
to continue at that point. There's dangerous lightning, the field is soaked
and flooded yada yada yada. The result of the rule is grossly unfair to
the leading team though. Instead of suspending and resuming exactly
under the same conditions that both teams faced -- giving one more
strike -- the home team gets that plus a minimum nine more outs to
come back. Or looking at it another way, they get 28 more strikes
instead of 1.

Which is fairer if there must be some smidgen of unfairness? To say
to the home team "Sorry, but the weather was just too bad and you
lose that one more strike"? Or to say to the visiting team "Oops, we
know you were only one strike away from the win, but sorry we're
going to make you 28 strikes away instead..."?

There's nothing fair about the rule at all. I think it's unfair and
moronic, because as I mentioned it also invites delay shenanigans
inning-to-inning where the newly-trailing team just doesn't want
the inning to end. I think it also gives TOO much discretion to an
umpire when he can make 1 strike into 28, instead of at worst 1
into 0. There's no reason to allow the weather impact on the
game to be so wildly out of kilter. It's also a good rule of thumb
that when a rule is so complex as to be incoherent, it's probably
better to simplify it.
Bill Kawalec
2008-07-26 02:53:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by KalElFan
Post by Bill Kawalec
It's because the Jays scored that lead run in the top of the sixth, but
the home team had not completed their half of the sixth. Would hardly be
fair to call that a complete game, would it? IF it had been 2-1 at the end
of five, game over.
The main fairness issue here is that both teams should play sufficient
innings (or putting it another way, have sufficient outs at the plate) for
it to fairly be called a complete game. That's primarily dealt with by
the five inning rule, making it more than half a regulation game.
Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score would revert
to what it was at the end of five (in this case, since it was a tie, there
would be a make-up game). I remember the rule change, but I don't remember
when it happened. What I don't grasp is why someone can see this as unfair.
Bundo
2008-07-26 07:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Seems fair Bill. Thanks for the explanation.

BuNdO
Post by Bill Kawalec
Post by KalElFan
Post by Bill Kawalec
It's because the Jays scored that lead run in the top of the sixth, but
the home team had not completed their half of the sixth. Would hardly be
fair to call that a complete game, would it? IF it had been 2-1 at the end
of five, game over.
The main fairness issue here is that both teams should play sufficient
innings (or putting it another way, have sufficient outs at the plate) for
it to fairly be called a complete game. That's primarily dealt with by
the five inning rule, making it more than half a regulation game.
Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score would revert
to what it was at the end of five (in this case, since it was a tie, there
would be a make-up game). I remember the rule change, but I don't remember
when it happened. What I don't grasp is why someone can see this as unfair.
Bill Kawalec
2008-07-28 05:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bundo
Seems fair Bill. Thanks for the explanation.
No problem. I wish I could remember when the rule change was made, because
then perhaps I could actually look it up...
Bushdoctor Twoeight
2008-07-29 20:37:39 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@yahoo.com (Bill=A0Tamales)

"Bundo" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:g6elen$sch$***@news.datemas.de...

Seems fair Bill. Thanks for the explanation.
(you swallow that load of crap bundo,for
shame)

bk>
No problem. I wish I could remember when the rule change was made,
because then perhaps I could actually look it up.

reply>
WHY? would you have trouble looking it
up,I posted the official rules and the amendments to those rules in
here.

And I repeat there never was such a dumb
ass rule in mlb ever.

How can you possibly take runs away from
a team in the 6th if the game is called and
go back to the beginning of the 5th inning,tied!

Never happened and there was no such rule
in the history of the game!?

But prove me wrong ok billy,thats a pretty
lame ass excuse when you say wish you
could remember so you could look it up.

How friggin stupid does that make you sound
mr.baseball.I had no trouble finding the official
rules even with my little webbie.

Once more you prove to us you how much
you really know about mlb,so you make shit
up as you go along,your a legend in your
mind.And you just like to stir up shit so
you can rant everybody else are stupid blankety
blanks.Save it for your butt buddies in the
tigs ng wasteland.Even whats left of the
regs over there don't even find you at
least amusing anymore.your the biggest
dweeb know it all on usenet.And thats
a fact jack...look it up.
Bundo
2008-08-01 02:03:36 UTC
Permalink
What's your issue with BK? I dont' understand. I don't know him but man you
have a hate-on for him. he seems pretty baseball smart. Fact is...the Jays
had three more outs to work with than the O's...that seems pretty unfair
when I look back and I admitted it.

BuNdO
"Bushdoctor Twoeight" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:7857-488F7F93-***@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net...
From: ***@yahoo.com (Bill Tamales)

"Bundo" <***@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:g6elen$sch$***@news.datemas.de...

Seems fair Bill. Thanks for the explanation.
(you swallow that load of crap bundo,for
shame)

bk>
No problem. I wish I could remember when the rule change was made,
because then perhaps I could actually look it up.

reply>
WHY? would you have trouble looking it
up,I posted the official rules and the amendments to those rules in
here.

And I repeat there never was such a dumb
ass rule in mlb ever.

How can you possibly take runs away from
a team in the 6th if the game is called and
go back to the beginning of the 5th inning,tied!

Never happened and there was no such rule
in the history of the game!?

But prove me wrong ok billy,thats a pretty
lame ass excuse when you say wish you
could remember so you could look it up.

How friggin stupid does that make you sound
mr.baseball.I had no trouble finding the official
rules even with my little webbie.

Once more you prove to us you how much
you really know about mlb,so you make shit
up as you go along,your a legend in your
mind.And you just like to stir up shit so
you can rant everybody else are stupid blankety
blanks.Save it for your butt buddies in the
tigs ng wasteland.Even whats left of the
regs over there don't even find you at
least amusing anymore.your the biggest
dweeb know it all on usenet.And thats
a fact jack...look it up.
Bill Kawalec
2008-08-01 02:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bundo
What's your issue with BK? I dont' understand. I don't know him but man
you have a hate-on for him. he seems pretty baseball smart. Fact is...the
Jays had three more outs to work with than the O's...that seems pretty
unfair when I look back and I admitted it.
I have a very short killfile list, but bushie is one of the honorees, among
other reasons, for his simple lack of the ability to format a post.
As a matterof fact, I am 100% sure that, in the past, a game called on
account of rain in the middle of an inning would revert to the end of the
previous inning (except if it were the bottom half of an inning, and the
home team had taken the lead), and it was the very inequity of that that led
to the rule change.
I strongly suspect that you read the debate over whether a hitter who bats
in the game winning run from second, in the home half of the 9th, is
entitled to a two base hit last season, bushie, so you should not be
doubting my baseball knowledge.
(btw, for those who missed it, the hitter is entitled to a double IF he
advances to and touches second base. If anyone doubts that, Google not the
official rules of the game, but rather rules for official scoring. ) .
Post by Bundo
BuNdO
Seems fair Bill. Thanks for the explanation.
(you swallow that load of crap bundo,for
shame)
bk>
No problem. I wish I could remember when the rule change was made,
because then perhaps I could actually look it up.
reply>
WHY? would you have trouble looking it
up,I posted the official rules and the amendments to those rules in
here.
And I repeat there never was such a dumb
ass rule in mlb ever.
How can you possibly take runs away from
a team in the 6th if the game is called and
go back to the beginning of the 5th inning,tied!
Never happened and there was no such rule
in the history of the game!?
But prove me wrong ok billy,thats a pretty
lame ass excuse when you say wish you
could remember so you could look it up.
How friggin stupid does that make you sound
mr.baseball.I had no trouble finding the official
rules even with my little webbie.
Once more you prove to us you how much
you really know about mlb,so you make shit
up as you go along,your a legend in your
mind.And you just like to stir up shit so
you can rant everybody else are stupid blankety
blanks.Save it for your butt buddies in the
tigs ng wasteland.Even whats left of the
regs over there don't even find you at
least amusing anymore.your the biggest
dweeb know it all on usenet.And thats
a fact jack...look it up.
b***@webtv.net
2008-08-01 05:01:30 UTC
Permalink
bk>
I have a very short killfile list, but bushie is one of the honorees,
among other reasons, for his simple lack of the ability to format a
post. As a matterof fact, I am 100% sure that, in the past, a game
called on account of rain in the middle of an inning would revert to the
end of the previous inning (except if it were the bottom half of an
inning, and the home team had taken the lead), and it was the very
inequity of that that led to the rule change.

I strongly suspect that you read the debate over whether a hitter who
bats in the game winning run from second, in the home half of the 9th,
is entitled to a two base hit last season, bushie, so you should not be
doubting my baseball knowledge.=B3=95{What if anything does that
have to do with it,and no I didn't happen
to catch those pearls of wisdom from
you,I don't take much stock in anybody
who argues and calls the rose guy nasty
childish names}.=B3*

(btw, for those who missed it, the hitter is entitled (snip useless
dribble that has
nothing to do with the original post))

=B9=95(this from someone who is barley literate
and top posts to boot,not that it matters
to me except bk trashes me for not
formating my posts to his expectations,
so he plonks me,what a crock)=B2=95

reply>
Personally i don't give a rats ass about
who is entitled to what,it has nothing to
with the original post about a game called
and rain delay and why it may have been
unfair for the the jays.

Again the game was not called it was
suspended and there in lies the difference
if the game was called because of rain
etc at the end of five.the team who leads
wins period.

You only read my posts through others
who post replies to me,and the you have
the gal to insult my formating of posts.

Give me a freaking break,you consider
your trash mouthed replies to be worthy
of merit.And you try and cover up your
inadequacies with reams of bs and off
topic ramblings,to show us your astounding knowledge of the game.
Your truly a legend in your own pitiful
mind,and we are 100% sure of that.

HowAbout you back up what you said about how there was a rule that if a
game was suspended,they would take runs away from the team leading at
the time and replay the game.Show us the cheese
billy,or shut the hell up,you pompous ass.

To be fare this is what you wrote on the
topic bill,so you can't say learn to read
or something else verbose.

Direct Quote.

bk wrote>

Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score would
revert to what it was at the end of five (in this case, since it was a
tie, there would be a make-up game). I remember the rule change, but I
don't remember when it happened. What I don't grasp is why someone can
see this as unfair.

Direct Quote 2

bk wrote>

No problem. I wish I could remember when the rule change was made,
because then perhaps I could actually look it up.


{then you try and tell us you can't
remember when the rule was changed
so you can't look it up,I'm 100 % sure
your full of what you post}
b***@webtv.net
2008-08-01 03:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Date: Thu, Jul 31, 2008, 10:03pm From: ***@sympatico.ca (Bundo)
What's your issue with BK? I dont' understand. I don't know him but man
you have a hate-on for him. he seems pretty baseball smart. Fact
is...the Jays had three more outs to work with than the O's...that seems
pretty unfair when I look back and I admitted it.

reply>
For starters whats your issue with me,you
don't know me either,so whats your point
bundo,period.

?? How is it possible the jays had three more outs to work with when
the game
was played in baltimore,they resumed
the game in the sixth inn,advantage O's
imho,as they had the last at bat.??

(as other posters pointed out,why
are you ragging on me??)

The game should have been called in
the 6th when the jays had the lead,thats
what happens in 99% of rain outs.

For whatever reason the crew chief,decided to suspend the game.

That was totally unfair imho to the
jays who had the lead when well over
half the game had been played.

But as anybody who followed the jays
for very long can attest to the clear bias
by some al umps against a non american
based team.Most recent was the clearly
blown call that caused roy to loose his
cool.and thats rare.for him.

If you want to suck up to bk it's no skin
of my ass,I call em like I see em.

He has been rude,crude,and obnoxious,
since he started posting in here three
years or so,if you want a sample of his
arrogance and crude vocabulary swing
over to the tigs ng.And see how much he
respected over there ok. Nuff said.

It's been pretty much a ghost town in here
for along time,you jump ship every other
post either your a fan of the team or you are not.Like I said no skin
off my ass.

But don't expect me to sit back and let
billy quote rules that never existed in mlb
just to stir up shit in here,he is so transparent,and if you can'T see
through it
that's your tough tacos bundo.

He plonked me long ago,because I called
him on pompous posts and because of his
obnoxious,language etc.,fine with me.

And i proved him wrong on more than
one occasion.he can't handle that.I will
be the first one to admit I made a mistake
but you won't catch billy apologising
for his arrogance and ignorance to others.
He will just tell you to go FYourself.now
that's class.!

I posted the rules concerning called games and suspended in mlb and he
comes in here and tells us,there was
a rule but he can't remember when
it was,so he can't look it up,yaokwhatever.

??Further who was it awhile ago who,said
mlb sucked and was a disgrace etc etc.
and would not ever follow the game or
the jays again,,uh hummmmmmmm!

Like I said earlier.suck up to billy if ya
like,no skin off my nose,but just remember when you point a finger at
someone there are three more pointing
at you.

I suspect you will not reply as per usual
and I know you have disdain for me,so be
it.We all have notions on the game,and
the ng was designed for jays fans in mind
to share those opinions and ideas,and
rants,make no mistake bk's only purpose
at posting in here is because he trashed
the tigs ng and he did a number to many
of the regs who used to post in here as
well and have left because of him and
his arrogance.

I follow most of the other ng's and post
once in awhile in some of them,particularly if i notice a great play or
effort by an opposing team,check the other al ng'sbk just posts in here
and the tigs ng,he would get his arse kicked if he was to post his
arrogant bs in other ng's.

And do a search of his posts on usenet
groups,and what he has said in here
and in the tigs,ng,before you judge
me and my posts ok.

Sorry for the rant,but thats just how
I see it,if you choose to be hood winked
by bk thats your choice and play follow
the fearless leader.

have a nice day eh!
b***@webtv.net
2008-08-01 05:24:03 UTC
Permalink
These are the rules and amendments posted previous to what is becoming
tedious and mind numbing bunch of crap.

Where does it say that a game called because of weather etc in the
6th.That
you take runs away from a team and
go back to the 5th when it was tied and
the game is replayed BILLY.
REad and weep bk.

The official rules and amendments:
since day one!

4.12 SUSPENDED GAMES.
(a) A league shall adopt the following rules providing for completion at
a future date of games terminated for any of the following reasons:
(1) A curfew imposed by law;
(2) A time limit permissible under league rules;
(3) Light failure or malfunction of a mechanical field device under
control of the home club. (Mechanical field device shall include
automatic tarpaulin or water removal equipment).
(4) Darkness, when a law prevents the lights from being turned on.
**(5) Weather, if the game is called while an inning is in progress and
before it is completed, and one of the following situations prevails:
**(i) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score,
and the home team has not scored.
**(ii) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead,
and the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead.
**(b) Such games shall be known as suspended games. No game called
because of a curfew, weather, or a time limit shall be a suspended game
unless it has progressed far enough to have been a regulation game under
the provisions of
Rule 4.10. A game called under the provisions of 4.12(a), (3) or (4)
shall be a suspended game at any time after it starts.
NOTE: Weather and similar conditions_4.12 (a) (1 through 5)_shall take
precedence in determining whether a called game shall be a suspended
game.
A game can only be considered a suspended game if stopped for any of the
five (5) reasons specified in Section (a). Any regulation game called
due to weather with the score tied (unless situation outlined in 4.12
(a) (5) (i) prevails) is a tie game and must be replayed in its
entirety.
(c) A suspended game shall be resumed and completed as follows:
(1) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game between the two
clubs on the same grounds; or
(2) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader between the
two clubs on the same grounds, if no single game remains on the
schedule; or
(3) If suspended on the last scheduled date between the two clubs in
that city, transferred and played on the grounds of the opposing club,
if possible;
(i) Immediately preceding the next scheduled single game, or
(ii) Immediately preceding the next scheduled doubleheader, if no single
game remains on the schedule.
(4) If a suspended game has not been resumed and completed on the last
date scheduled for the two clubs, it shall be a called game.
**(d) A suspended game shall be resumed at the exact point of suspension
of the original game. The completion of a suspended game is a
continuation of the original game. The lineup and batting order of both
teams shall be exactly the same as the lineup and batting order at the
moment of suspension, subject to the rules governing substitution. Any
player may be replaced by a player who had not been in the game prior to
the suspension. No player removed before the suspension may be returned
to the lineup. A player who was not with the club when the game was
suspended may be used as a substitute, even if he has taken the place of
a player no longer with the club who would not have been eligible
because he had been removed from the lineup before the game was
suspended. If immediately prior to the call of a suspended game, a
substitute pitcher has been announced but has not retired the side or
pitched until the batter becomes a baserunner, such pitcher, when the
suspended game is later resumed may, but is not required to start the
resumed portion of the game. However, if he does not start he will be
considered as having been substituted for and may not be used in that
game.
Then we have this:
EXCEPTION: If the game is called while an inning is in progress and
before it is completed, the game becomes a SUSPENDED game in each of the
following situations:
(1) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to tie the score and
the home team has not scored;
**(2) The visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead and
the home team has not tied the score or retaken the lead. National
Association Leagues may also adopt the following rules for suspended
games in addition to 4.11 (d) (1) & (2) above. (If adopted by a National
Association League, Rule 4.10 (c) (d) & (e) would not apply to their
games.):
**(3) The game has not become a regulation game (4 1/2 innings with the
home team ahead, or 5 innings with the visiting club ahead or tied).
(4) Any regulation game tied at the point play is stopped because of
weather, curfew or other reason.
*(5) If a game is suspended before it becomes a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be limited to seven innings.
(6) If a game is suspended after it is a regulation game, and is
continued prior to another regularly scheduled game, the regularly
scheduled game will be a nine inning game.
EXCEPTION: The above sections (3), (4), (5) & (6) will not apply to the
last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, or League Playoffs. Any suspended game not completed prior to
the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship
season, will become a called game.
Bushdoctor Twoeight
2008-07-27 05:29:00 UTC
Permalink
bk wrote>
Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score would
revert to what it was at the end of five (in this case, since it was a
tie, there would be a make-up game). I remember the rule change, but I
don't remember when it happened. What I don't grasp is why someone can
see this as unfair.

reply>
I went back and looked up the rules,don't
know where you got that lame idea,it's just
plane bs.

I can't find a game in the modern era where that
ever happened,how the fuck can you take runs away from either team if it
has been officially
scored by either team after five,What if the
jays had scored 6 runs in the top of the 6th
making it 6-1,are you trying to tell us,they
would have taken 5 runs away from the
jays and then restarted the game in it's
entirety years ago...nOT!
Never happened in the history in mlb period.

Maybe on your little league girls slow pitch team,but not in the bigs,I
posted the official
rules and amendments to those rules and
there was no such rule in mlb ever.


First of all it was not a tie game the jays had
a 2-1 lead going into the bottom of the 6th
with two out and an 0-2 count on the O's
batter.Further more if a game is called after
5 complete inn.it is considered a win for the
team who has the lead,regardless period.
Yes if is tied after 5 that would make it
only right to re play the game as nothing
was decided after over half the game.

Why would anyone consider it unfair,for
one thing the jays clearly had the lead
after almost six complete,so what happens
if they stopped the game in say the bottom
of 7 or 8 with the same score,my guess is
the if the shoe had been on the other foot
the O's would have gotten the win.

Secondly the game was not stopped it was
suspended.which is a totally different kettle
of fish according to mlb rules of the game.
A stopped game would have been a win
for either team after 5 depending who had
the lead,since the crew chief suspended the
game in the 6th it meant the O's where given
an unfair advantage to come back and
re take the lead the next day and given again
an unfair advantage of having 3 more outs
than the jays.plus the jays had to have the
same pitcher on the mound etc.as well as
the O's had to have the same hitter at the
plate when the game restarted,advantage
O's imho.

It may broad you to be a little more accurate
in facts of the game,before you try and sound
so profound and wordily billy,once again you
prove your just as slack jawed as the rest of
us mere mortals.
KalElFan
2008-08-01 17:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Kawalec
Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score
would revert to what it was at the end of five...
That would have been even more unfair.
Post by Bill Kawalec
... What I don't grasp is why someone can see this as unfair.
As I demonstrated last round, it leads to a scenario where the
visiting team can take a 1-0 lead in the top of the 6th and have
two outs and an 0-2 count on the last hitter in the bottom of the
sixth. The visiting team would be one strike away from winning.

The skies open up and drench the field, lightning everywhere.
The hitter scratches and fidgets and goes back to the on-deck
circle for more pine tar. The umpire beckons him to step back
in the batter's box, at which point the home team manager is
out of the dugout slipping and falling and swimming out to give
the umpire hell. "You're gonna kill us all! Look at it out here!
Do your job and suspend this thing!" Then he slips and falls
again on his way back to the dugout, howling in pain as he gets
up. Is it just Oscar time or is he really hurt at that point? Then
"CRACK!" as lightning strikes a light tower. The umpire feels
he has to suspend it.

Or the umpire just uses his discretion and suspends it under far
less clear circumstances.

As I said the last round:

"Which is fairer if there must be some smidgen of unfairness? To
say to the home team "Sorry, but the weather was just too bad
and you lose that one more strike"? Or to say to the visiting team
"Oops, we know you were only one strike away from the win,
but sorry we're going to make you 28 strikes away instead..."?

"There's nothing fair about the rule at all. I think it's unfair and
moronic, because as I mentioned it also invites delay shenanigans
inning-to-inning where the newly-trailing team just doesn't want
the inning to end. I think it also gives TOO much discretion to an
umpire when he can make 1 strike into 28, instead of at worst 1
into 0. There's no reason to allow the weather impact on the
game to be so wildly out of kilter. It's also a good rule of thumb
that when a rule is so complex as to be incoherent, it's probably
better to simplify it."

I've sometimes invoked a "RARF!" acronym response to posts like
yours. Reassertion After Refutation Fails. If you're right about
the old version of the rule wiping out the top of the 6th run(s), then
sure that was even more unfair. But it's still grossly unfair in the
scenario I described. Coming back and reasserting that it's fair,
or saying you don't understand how anyone would see it as unfair,
doesn't work.

If MLB ditched the 5 inning rule entirely, then that would be fair.
Just suspend and continue every game for 9 innings. If MLB said
suspend and complete the bottom of the inning only, in the scenario
I gave, then that would be fair. If it were a game already in extra
innings, or in the bottom of the ninth, it wouldn't be an issue and
they'd only come back for the one more strike. It's when games
can be suspended and the home team can get 28 strikes, when
they would have only had 1, that the unfairness and potential for
delay shenanigans becomes obvious.

If I've misconstrued what the rule would be in the scenario I gave,
then fine we can discuss it. But the inherent problem that many
had with this game being suspended is the rule itself. Everyone
who follows the game knows the 5-inning rule, and they see the
Jays with a lead. Yet instead of it ending, the Jays end up having
to not just play the bottom of the 6th but the entire game. One
doesn't have to analyze it as we have here in the thread, to see
that as unfair and problematic.
b***@webtv.net
2008-08-01 19:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, Aug 1, 2008, 1:56pm From:

reply>
Very well put,but you can bet billy
will try and put a different spin on it.

Or try and blur the facts as he did
before,by using examples,that have
nothing to with the gist of the original
post.Or in other words bs tries to baffle
brains and common sense.

But you captured the essence of
the whole scenario very nicely,as
you did before.

Kudos to you kalefan,nicely stated
and with some humour to boot.

Hope you keep posting in here,it's
a real breath of fresh air,for sure.

I still think the jays got the shity end
of the stick on that one,but it turned
out ok for them in the end.

I can't help but wonder if the shoe
had been on the other foot,the O's
may have gotten a W,as has been
the norm over the years for the jays.

Good thing the dome has a lid.but did
you see lou p,try and intimidate the
umpire this season and delay the game
by having them wait until the shadow
was favoring his team.What a crock,
first time I ever saw such a cheap shot.
and an umpire grant such a ridiculous
request,go figure.And gibby just sat and
watched his team get shafted again,no
wonder he is now unempolyed,to little
to late imho.

regards doc



***@yanospamhoo.com (KalElFan)

"Bill Kawalec" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g-ydna_OZtU-***@comcast.com...

Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score would
revert to what it was at the end of five...
That would have been even more unfair.

.. What I don't grasp is why someone can see this as unfair.

As I demonstrated last round, it leads to a scenario where the visiting
team can take a 1-0 lead in the top of the 6th and have two outs and an
0-2 count on the last hitter in the bottom of the sixth. The visiting
team would be one strike away from winning.

The skies open up and drench the field, lightning everywhere. The hitter
scratches and fidgets and goes back to the on-deck circle for more pine
tar. The umpire beckons him to step back in the batter's box, at which
point the home team manager is out of the dugout slipping and falling
and swimming out to give the umpire hell. "You're gonna kill us all!
Look at it out here! Do your job and suspend this thing!" Then he slips
and falls again on his way back to the dugout, howling in pain as he
gets up. Is it just Oscar time or is he really hurt at that point? Then
"CRACK!" as lightning strikes a light tower. The umpire feels he has to
suspend it.

Or the umpire just uses his discretion and suspends it under far less
clear circumstances.

As I said the last round:

=A0=A0=A0=A0"Which is fairer if there must be some smidgen of
unfairness? To say to the home team "Sorry, but the weather was just too
bad and you lose that one more strike"? Or to say to the visiting team
"Oops, we know you were only one strike away from the win, but sorry
we're going to make you 28 strikes away instead..."?

=A0=A0=A0=A0"There's nothing fair about the rule at all. I think it's
unfair and moronic, because as I mentioned it also invites delay
shenanigans inning-to-inning where the newly-trailing team just doesn't
want the inning to end. I think it also gives TOO much discretion to an
umpire when he can make 1 strike into 28, instead of at worst 1 into 0.
There's no reason to allow the weather impact on the game to be so
wildly out of kilter. It's also a good rule of thumb that when a rule is
so complex as to be incoherent, it's probably better to simplify it."

I've sometimes invoked a "RARF!" acronym response to posts like yours.
Reassertion After Refutation Fails. =A0 If you're right about the old
version of the rule wiping out the top of the 6th run(s), then sure that
was even more unfair. But it's still grossly unfair in the scenario I
described. Coming back and reasserting that it's fair, or saying you
don't understand how anyone would see it as unfair, doesn't work.

If MLB ditched the 5 inning rule entirely, then that would be fair. Just
suspend and continue every game for 9 innings. If MLB said suspend and
complete the bottom of the inning only, in the scenario I gave, then
that would be fair. If it were a game already in extra innings, or in
the bottom of the ninth, it wouldn't be an issue and they'd only come
back for the one more strike. It's when games can be suspended and the
home team can get 28 strikes, when they would have only had 1, that the
unfairness and potential for delay shenanigans becomes obvious.
If I've misconstrued what the rule would be in the scenario I gave, then
fine we can discuss it. But the inherent problem that many had with this
game being suspended is the rule itself. Everyone who follows the game
knows the 5-inning rule, and they see the Jays with a lead. Yet instead
of it ending, the Jays end up having to not just play the bottom of the
6th but the entire game. One doesn't have to analyze it as we have here
in the thread, to see that as unfair and problematic
Bill Kawalec
2008-08-02 01:39:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by KalElFan
Post by Bill Kawalec
Used to be that, if a game was called in the sixth, the score
would revert to what it was at the end of five...
That would have been even more unfair.
Post by Bill Kawalec
... What I don't grasp is why someone can see this as unfair.
As I demonstrated last round, it leads to a scenario where the
visiting team can take a 1-0 lead in the top of the 6th and have
two outs and an 0-2 count on the last hitter in the bottom of the
sixth. The visiting team would be one strike away from winning.
Sorry. I was unclear. What I meant was that I don't see how someone would
see the new rule (suspend the game) as unfair. My juxtaposition may have
been misleading.

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